>> With all due respect, Mr. Cox, your "average user" definition does need an
>> upgrade.
>>
>> Not all "average users" are nincompoops. I have seen many "average users"
>> successfully installed Windoze 95 on their machine themselves. They are not
>> "gurus" or "wizards" of any kind, and most of them don't know enough to code up
>> a working C or even Visual-Basic program.
>>
>> Ask the same "average users" to install Linux however, and most will throw up
>> their hands.
>>
>> The level of difficulty to install Windoze from scratch and that of installing
>> Linux is _not_ the same. It _does_ require a higher level of computer literacy
>> for a successful Linux installation (even with the RedHat's almost no-brain
>> installation process.)
>>
>
>Hmmm ever try to install windows on a PnP machine ?
Yes. Nowadays it is hard to not find a machine that is PnP
running Windows - used by joe average.
I am certainly not joe average, but rather I'm quite technical by
nature, and have had a lot of computer experience. I'm certainly
not a "God" of sorts, but I have my strong points. I consider
myself a professional in many aspects, and an expert in several
areas.
As such, I feel that I should be as able to install Windows as I
am to install Linux on a given machine. So far, in the last 2
months I've successfully installed Windows 95 on ONE machine that
had PnP cards, etc.. I've installed Win95 on at least 15 or more
other machines that had PnP cards that Windows did NOT set up
properly. These cards were:
Crystal Audio PnP (Zoltrix) on SEVERAL machines. The result of
which was I didn't get it running at ALL on ANY of the machines,
my advice being to the customers to purchase a real Sound Blaster
as I've NEVER had problems with any sound blaster products
including PnP models. Some of my customers took their machines
to other shops that also could not fix the problem. They *ALL*
end up purchasing a SB or perfect clone of SB, which worked every
time so far.
I installed a PCI NE2000 card (PnP) which windows REFUSED to
detect properly and assign resources. When Windows was started
up, it detected the card and attempted to install drivers WITHOUT
ASKING PERMISSION IN ANY WAY. It just did it. The installation
conflicted with something, but it didn't say what, and the IRQ's,
etc.. were NOT in conflict with any existing devices. I read the
explicit instructions for installing it, removed the device from
device manager, did the mandatory reboot, and it reinstalled the
driver. This repeated several times, until I finally tried NOT
rebooting after removing the device. I had to screw around for 2
days to finally get it to work. I did not ever change the card's
settings, and they WERE NEVER in conflict.
Another interesting thing is this: Go to practically ANY device
in Device Manager in Windows 95, and click on Properties. 99% of
all of the devices say "The device is working properly. This
device has no driver loaded nor is one needed" or something to
that effect. Well, if no driver is needed WHY THE F*CK DO I NEED
TO INSTALL ONE THEN? And once I've installed one, WHY ISN'T IT
NEEDED?
Clueless.
I could go on with Network card and Sound card PnP problems as
well as Motherboard PnP probs, etc. but I'm sure you've seen your
share as well. I just felt the need to share my troubles as well
and get off some M$ steam.
As a side note, I test all PnP devices in a Linux machine that
conflict in W95 or otherwise wont install correctly in W95. To
date, *ALL* of them have worked very easily despite the fact that
Linux is not PnP. I have not ever needed to use the isapnptools
either. Very interesting indeed.
>Due to the number of cleanups and repairs I have done on windows boxes, I
>would have to agree with Alan, the average user is not capable of
>installing windows under anything but optimal conditions.
I agree wholeheartedly.
>(no more then 1
>PnP device) It's not that their stupid, it's just that the process looks
>easy, when it's not. It's the same reason I dislike windows look-alike
>bios interfaces, because once again it's deceptive, makes those hd setting
>look like a toy. I preferred it when it looked hard because then the
>users would at least ask first before playing with stuff. (saving me
>plenty of time that would be wasted fixing it)
Yeah, I'd rather that the WinBIOS's used the addition ROM area
for putting MEANINGFUL help on the help screens. Why putting
help at all when it is obvious your options on a particular
setting are "Enabled, Disabled". "This setting enables or
diables Speculative R/W BCLK demultiplexing" is hardly "helpful"
to someone wanting to know wether they should enable or disable
it.
>On the other hand with Linux there is that constant line from MS that Unix
>is hard to use and uses an obsolete text based interface etc etc. They
>expect it to be hard therefore it is[1]. I've noticed consistent
>improvements
>from red hat for the install process, but I suspect they will actually have
>to be *easier* then windows to install before people will actually believe
>it's doable.
I agree. The major difficulty with joe user installing Linux is
this:
1) Partitioning. Unix partitioning is complex, with fdisk, or
even disk druid. We need some sort of "just do it" option
that is automatic, but not stupid in order for Joe user to be
able to install it. The concept is difficult to grasp for joe
blow, and until it is not, or until it is not an issue, that
difficulty will be there. Even if there was a Disk Wizard GUI
Druid of allmightiness, it is still difficult to most users.
I've evidenced it directly by letting people try and install
linux on a test machine to see how they did with it, and where
they got lost.
So far, the only major problem they encountered was with
partitioning. Even AFTER reading the manual, they still went
"how many partitions do I need and why?". The installation
STRONGLY needs a "automatic partitioning" that makes a system
partition and a swap partition whenever it can easily. If the
disk is paritioned allready full, or whatever, then and only
then should the "average user" be greeted with more
complicated options. Keep in mind, that I don't think this
should be the DEFAULT, as most people here would not want
that, but rather, the menu that displays "fdisk", "disk druid"
as options should also display "Partition wizard" which then
detects the partition scheme in place if any, and offers some
simple choices for the user, then partitions the system. What
exactly these choices should be, I don't really know, but some
system is needed.
2) Package selection. The package selection needs a less lengthy
screen of some kind. The package grouping is ok, but it is
not quite "there". I have no suggestion to what would be
better as it works great for me.
>The real improvement would be when we see the mainstream computer
>manufacturers offer pre-installed Linux.
I agree.
> Gerhard
>
>1 I don't think lack of computer ability makes one stupid just untrained
> I've met very few people incapable of learning at least a working
> knowledge of windows or Linux when taught correctly.
I've met several people that would be classified as "stupid". No
sign of a will to learn. They expect the computer to be like a
telephone, and just work. They are right to want that, but in
reality it is not a telephone, and they will either learn, or be
plagued by problems and fork out cash to get it fixed. Same as a
car I guess.
>2 I find when people think it will be hard they tend to miss the obvious.
> "no it can't be what it looks like that would be too simple" (yes I've
> seen it)
I agree. I sometimes do that myself... ;o) Not usually in
Linux, but for sure in Windows.
Another note for windows: I have a 486 I just installed W95 on.
I set it up with 800x600x16k video, and used it fine for a week.
I just added an ISA NE2000 card (nonPnP) to the machine that did
not conflict with ANYTHING. The card works fine in Linux on that
machine no trouble. When I "add new hardware" I choose manual
install, and I choose the right driver. Windows accepts it, and
when it reboots, my machine comes up in 640x480x16 colors mode,
and the network card shows up with one of 3 RANDOM problems in
Device manager. The machine is *NOT* in safe mode either, but in
full windows normal mode. I change the res back to 800x600 and
reboot. The second time it comes up fine. WHen I reboot, there
is a one in 3 or 4 chance that the video will switch to
640x480x16 color mode again. Totally random. Now I've taken the
net card out, and it STILL randomly changes resolution. EXPLAIN
THAT??? Linux works FINE on the same machine (dual boot). Go
figure...
TTYL
-- Mike A. Harris - Computer Consultant - Linux advocateLinux software galore: http://freshmeat.net
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