Re: [PATCH -tip] introduce sys_membarrier(): process-wide memorybarrier (v9)

[Ingo Molnar]

* Mathieu Desnoyers <mathieu.desnoyers@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> * Ingo Molnar (mingo@xxxxxxx) wrote:
> > 
> > * Nick Piggin <npiggin@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> > 
> > > On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 08:36:35AM +0100, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > * Mathieu Desnoyers <mathieu.desnoyers@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Unless this question is answered, Ingo's SA_RUNNING signal proposal, as 
> > > > > appealing as it may look at a first glance, falls into the 
> > > > > "fundamentally broken" category. [...]
> > > > 
> > > > How is it different from your syscall? I.e. which lines of code make the 
> > > > difference? We could certainly apply the (trivial) barrier change to 
> > > > context_switch().
> > > 
> > > I think it is just easy for userspace to misuse or think it does something 
> > > that it doesn't (because of races).
> > 
> > That wasnt my question though. The question i asked Mathieu was to show how 
> > SA_RUNNING is "fundamentally broken" for librcu use while sys_membarrier() is 
> > not?
> > 
> > This is really what he claims above. (i preserved the quote)
> > 
> > It must be a misunderstanding either on my side or on his side. (Once that is 
> > cleared we can discuss further usecases for SA_RUNNING.)
> 
> Well, it's not broken for sys_membarrier() specifically if we add the proper 
> memory barriers to the scheduler, but it's broken when we try to use it for 
> anything else. [...]

That's quite an important distinction to an unqualified "fundamentally 
broken", right?

> [...]  What makes it broken is that it requires that the scheduler switch 
> guarantee to have the same side-effect on a running thread than execution on 
> the per-running-thread signal handler.
> 
> What's different with the sys_membarrier system call is that it does not try 
> to make generic something that should probably stay case-specific due to its 
> close coupling with the scheduler.

Yeah, that's a fair point.

Without another realistic usecase SA_RUNNING would just essentially be a 
SA_BARRIER special-case. (IMO even in that case signal handling speedups 
driven via this usecase would still be tempting though.)

But note that some other usecase is possible as well:

In theory we could inject signals at context-switch time (if that signal is 
not pending yet) - signals are fairly atomic [with a preallocated pool] and 
the 'wakeup' property of signals is not needed as the to-be-running task is 
obviously up to execution. (so there's no deadlock. It doesnt have to run with 
the rq lock taken in any case - it can run from sched_tail() i suspect.)

So all this could be done via the ret-to-user framework that KVM uses at 
essentially no extra scheduler overhead. I think :-) It would be a bit like 
SIGALRM for timers.

Plus another performance optimization would be useful as well: signals could 
be turned on/off without having to enter the kernel. This could be done via a 
in-user-memory enable/disable-signals flag/mask associated with each task. (it 
would pin a page of memory.)

The question is, do we want to enable user-space to trigger a signal upon 
context-switches?

It probably cannot be a queued one, as preemption from the signal handler 
itself would be rather yucky. As long as concurrency control is involved, 
user-space only wants a callback for the _first_ reschedule - subsequent 
reschedules dont need to trigger a signal, until the signal handler has 
finished.

	Ingo
--
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/